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Post by Denacity on Mar 7, 2023 19:19:40 GMT -5
Looking for opinions Hardwar fans! I've been thinking recently about how we could do some rebalancing of the game like Moths, Engines, Cells and Pods and come up With like a "Community Balance" of sorts. I would like to start with talking about **Moths** specifically. Would you like to see a rebalance of the Moths to perhaps make some more useful? (The Neo Tiger always seem like the go-to). The Swallow also specifically seems a bit overpowered. Or would you rather leave everything alone?
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Post by xellotath on Mar 7, 2023 22:16:12 GMT -5
I tested all ships minus the Silver-Y. I did this by setting up two clients, and blagging moths from the god hangar for a quick launch. One client would blag a moth while the other sits outside ready to shoot. All ships took 11 plasma shots to lose shields and 28 laser shots to get destroyed. Then I tested the turning rate by going max speed and turning to the left from the exact same position for all ships (the position the game puts you when you "undock" from the god hangar). They all turn the same.
So in conclusion, everything but speed and weapon slots is the same. With that in mind, the Neo-Tiger is the best ship as is the fastest one with no restrictions to equipment whatsoever. The police comes second, but only because is the second fastest and nothing else. Swallow is the worst ship in the game, because it's the only one that can't use a laser turret and literally gains nothing for it (no extra tank, no sharper turning, etc.). You're basically trading a laser turret for 24 MPH. Death's Head and Hawks are unremarkable, and the Hawk has 4 weapon slots (all the others have 5 or 6). Moon Moth is the cheapest moth that can use a turret, so it has that going for it at least, and it is better than the Swallow.
I didn't bother with the Silver-Y because it has a ton of restrictions on what you can equip.
So yes, a balance mod would be nice.
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krant
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Post by krant on Mar 8, 2023 20:25:32 GMT -5
If you ask me, the Swallow is essentially a faster, tougher Silver-Y with more equipment slots and both cannot mount Laser Turrets. The Moon Moth is limited to carrying an Engine #2 as its highest level of engine type and isn't necessarily better than the Swallow (unless you pick the Godfather starter option in a new game, in which the Moon Moth you start off with is somehow equipped with an Engine #3 thanks to some hex-editing by some of the developers). The Hawk is merely jack-of-all-stats above average but not so special. The Neo-Tiger, while it slightly loses out to the Swallow in terms of speed, is indeed the best all-purpose moth in the game, despite the myth perpetrated in Zedo's website that its turning ability is the worst in the game. The Police L-2000 moth is merely a slightly worse version of the Neo-Tiger in terms of performance. The Death's Head moth is essentially a beefier version of the Moon Moth without the two-seater capacity but slower than the Hawk moth even when fitted with an Engine #3, though it can carry every single missile type in the game (the DH itself that I'm referring to). The Silver-Y is actually the worst performing moth in the game as it can only carry an Engine #1 and its equipment slots limit it to carry the Laser, Plasma Kannon, Sprat, Swarm, and an Afterburner (in which this particular equipment comes in very handy for this weaksauce moth). Also, in terms of cargo pod types, the Silver-Y cannot fit a cargo pod larger than a Small Pod while all the other ones can fit any type of cargo pod (even the Moon Moth can fit in the Largest Pod under it). Be aware that installing a cargo pod as well as carrying cargo drastically cuts down on the speed of your moth, and it can be a detrimental thing when engaging in combat, especially if you're flying in a weaker moth.
Also, all of the moths can equip any type of power cell in the game (Cell #1, Cell #2, Cell #3, Cell #4, and Fusion Cell), even the Silver-Y. The Fusion Cell is obviously hands down the best cell in the game as it has unlimited energy and makes all of the mountable guns useful, including the energy-hungry Pulse Laser. Among regular non-Fusion power cells, Cell #3 is the best general-purpose cell in the game to equip in your moth because it provides the best balance of energy capacity, recharging rate, and draining rate. Cell #2 is an energy hog (by that I mean it has a huge energy storing capacity) but recharges slowly and its draining rate is average. Cell #1 and #4 are best avoided. Cell #4 in particular actually has the fastest draining rate in the game when firing a gun and it performs like a watered down Cell #3, so it's best to be sold away rather than fitted into your moth.
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Post by Denacity on Mar 8, 2023 20:34:13 GMT -5
You also have to keep in mind the Swallow has a built in Radar Cloak when you are under a certain altitude.
From the discussions we have had in Discord, we feel its a bit OP since its (A) Fastest Moth (B) Can Fit as many weapons as a DH (C) Has at least as much health as a DH (D) invisible on Radar in some circumstances
We still plan on doing some further testing on the health stat to see how that actually works.
My initial inclination would be to limit its Pod to a medium pod, if possible, which would give it a unique limitation, and also lower the number of weapons it can carry. I don't feel that it losing out on the Turret is a huge loss since the Turret does less DPS than the standard Laser. It would still be the fastest moth in the game (I'm not counting MM with Engine 3).
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krant
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Post by krant on Mar 8, 2023 20:50:48 GMT -5
There's a file called 'Hardwar Patcher' by OUCH in the Downloads index in Zedo's Community site. It actually allows the alteration of many things in the game, including the stats of the engines and cells. I downloaded this patch many years ago and it helped me play the game in a better way even though the mechanics had to take a little getting used to thanks to the drastic alterations I've made in the patcher.
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Post by xellotath on Mar 8, 2023 21:20:35 GMT -5
Idk how you guys are thinking the Death's head is beefy when it literally dies in the same amount of hits than all other moths. And no it can't carry all missiles, it has 6 weapon slots. Meaning if I had plasma, pulse laser and a laser, I would be limited to 3 missiles. Laser turrets and afterburners don't count as a slot for some reason. Cell 2 recharge is the same as 1. Cell 3 discharge is the same as 1. Basically, cell 3 will recharge faster on a lightwell, but will drain exactly the same as cell 1. Cell 2 will drain a lot slower, but will recharge at the same speed as cell 1. So it looks like it has a slow recharge speed because you have more capacity but no extra recharge.
I pretend cell 4 doesn't exist.
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Post by Denacity on Mar 8, 2023 23:31:20 GMT -5
Cell 2 has double capacity of a Cell 1 with double the charge rate so maybe that's why it ends up taking roughly the same amount of time. I wasn't sure if the "Recharge Time" stat was rate per energy or total time from empty to full. Cell 3 is equal in capacity to Cell 1.
Cell 4 definitely needs tweaked but I think a linear curve makes sense here:
Cell 1: Smallest Capacity with Fastest Charge Rate
Cell 4: Largest Capacity with Slowest Charge Rate
That way even Cell 1's could be useful in some situations, and Cell 4's would mostly benefit from players who own hangars that can recharge via cell swapping
As far as the moth health, its always been believed they had different stats, and show as much in the editors, but perhaps in practice this doesn't actually work. Perhaps the only stat that effects movement is Mass and that is mostly about top speed. So its possible the only major differences in moths is how many weapons they can carry and what their top speed is.
This is why it could be cool to limit equipment like Pod sizes as another deciding factor.
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Post by Pilot on Mar 13, 2023 0:32:07 GMT -5
I tested all ships minus the Silver-Y. I did this by setting up two clients, and blagging moths from the god hangar for a quick launch. [. . .] So in conclusion, everything but speed and weapon slots is the same. With that in mind, the Neo-Tiger is the best ship as is the fastest one with no restrictions to equipment whatsoever. The police comes second, but only because is the second fastest and nothing else. I didn't bother with the Silver-Y because it has a ton of restrictions on what you can equip. Silver-Y . . . better hope Prometheus doesn't read that. despite the myth perpetrated in Zedo's website that its turning ability is the worst in the game. The Police L-2000 moth is merely a slightly worse version of the Neo-Tiger in terms of performance. [. . . ] Be aware that installing a cargo pod as well as carrying cargo drastically cuts down on the speed of your moth, and it can be a detrimental thing when engaging in combat, especially if you're flying in a weaker moth. [. . .] Cell #4 in particular actually has the fastest draining rate in the game when firing a gun and it performs like a watered down Cell #3, so it's best to be sold away rather than fitted into your moth. Police L-2000 / HardwarE: After testing this to double check, this is only in Hardwar Enhanced, as long as the PL-2000 has Target Software 3, then you can see if a flyer has a fine, wanted status, and if they (a pirate at least in my test) is "scanning" potential prey. All ships: Out of curiosity did you test whether Software updates improved shields or hit points? Curiosity two, did you test how many shots a Plasma Kannon needed to destroy a ship?  Cargo Pods: Do scavengers really need larger than the smallest or small pod? (Is this on a fix list?) Moon Moth: Due to a certain bug, Moon Moths are hands down the best moth in the game. PERIOD. Cell 4: I may remember wrong, but I'll ask anyway, didn't Cell 4 have the best performance before the U and UIM patches? Or maybe it was only in the F2.1? Now that I think about it how did Interplay move us to the left MM seat? |
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Post by Denacity on Mar 16, 2023 22:32:12 GMT -5
I tested all ships minus the Silver-Y. I did this by setting up two clients, and blagging moths from the god hangar for a quick launch. One client would blag a moth while the other sits outside ready to shoot. All ships took 11 plasma shots to lose shields and 28 laser shots to get destroyed. Then I tested the turning rate by going max speed and turning to the left from the exact same position for all ships (the position the game puts you when you "undock" from the god hangar). They all turn the same. So in conclusion, everything but speed and weapon slots is the same. With that in mind, the Neo-Tiger is the best ship as is the fastest one with no restrictions to equipment whatsoever. The police comes second, but only because is the second fastest and nothing else. Swallow is the worst ship in the game, because it's the only one that can't use a laser turret and literally gains nothing for it (no extra tank, no sharper turning, etc.). You're basically trading a laser turret for 24 MPH. Death's Head and Hawks are unremarkable, and the Hawk has 4 weapon slots (all the others have 5 or 6). Moon Moth is the cheapest moth that can use a turret, so it has that going for it at least, and it is better than the Swallow. I didn't bother with the Silver-Y because it has a ton of restrictions on what you can equip. So yes, a balance mod would be nice. We just did some testing and we have confirmed that yes, all moths have the same health, 16384 Shield Health and 16384 Structure Health. The hit point stat doesn't seem to be doing anything. More thoughts to follow. |
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Post by xellotath on Mar 17, 2023 5:37:46 GMT -5
All ships: Out of curiosity did you test whether Software updates improved shields or hit points? No. I didn't bother. Since all ships had the same amount of shields points, I just assumed any increase would be equal for all ships. Curiosity two, did you test how many shots a Plasma Kannon needed to destroy a ship? Can't kill with it. It only does cpu damage. Engines, weapons and structure are unaffected by it. Moon Moth: Due to a certain bug, Moon Moths are hands down the best moth in the game. PERIOD. You're talking about carrying a passenger for invulnerability, or there is some other bug? Trivia: You can clone thugs into sitting at the pilot and passenger seat both at the same time. I once cloned myself like that by accident. When I ordered the thug around I noticed I was still sitting as a passenger even though I was flying my own ship at the same time. I shot down my own thug to see what would happen and the game gave me a game over. We just did some testing and we have confirmed that yes, all moths have the same health, 16384 Shield Health and 16384 Structure Health. The hit point stat doesn't seem to be doing anything. More thoughts to follow. I wonder if it was always like this or if something broke along patches. |
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Post by Denacity on Mar 17, 2023 6:23:44 GMT -5
We are fairly certain Shield Software effects Regen rate, not strength. But it has a very short delay when the Regen starts so it could appear as if they are stronger just because they could Regen a little between shots if you aren't constantly being shot. Removing Shield Software stops your shields from regenerating at all unless you dock.
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Post by Pilot on Mar 17, 2023 19:47:02 GMT -5
All ships: Out of curiosity did you test whether Software updates improved shields or hit points? No. I didn't bother. Since all ships had the same amount of shields points, I just assumed any increase would be equal for all ships. Curiosity two, did you test how many shots a Plasma Kannon needed to destroy a ship? Can't kill with it. It only does cpu damage. Engines, weapons and structure are unaffected by it. Moon Moth: Due to a certain bug, Moon Moths are hands down the best moth in the game. PERIOD. You're talking about carrying a passenger for invulnerability, or there is some other bug? Trivia: You can clone thugs into sitting at the pilot and passenger seat both at the same time. I once cloned myself like that by accident. When I ordered the thug around I noticed I was still sitting as a passenger even though I was flying my own ship at the same time. I shot down my own thug to see what would happen and the game gave me a game over. Plasma: This seems to be something that was "fixed" (broken in my opinion) in UIM6 I tried to test U2, but it didn't really like the iso I was using. So after sabotaging the moths power system till it was destroyed the moth would be explode after launch, not sure it could enter an airlock, used God Hangar for tests. (Remember F2.1, didn't have instances nor windowed modes.) Moon Moths The MM isn't attacked by AI when there is a passenger, I assume that it's coded that way so that wanted players or faction flyers are not shot down in cabs since cabbies do not respawn. Interestingly enough cabbies will buy Fusion Cells. |
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